Londonderry Presbyterian Church, the second largest in the Northern New England Presbytery of the PCUSA, voted September 30 to leave the denomination, and was received on October 1 into the New Wineskins Presbytery of the EPC, according to the Layman Online:
Citing “recent decisions and actions” by the Presbyterian Church (USA) that “caused concern … as to the direction and fundamental beliefs of the denomination,” the second-largest church in the Presbytery of Northern New England has voted to immediately disaffiliate from the PCUSA and align itself with the New Wineskins Presbytery of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church.
Londonderry Presbyterian Church in Londonderry, N.H., also has taken Northern New England Presbytery to court to secure the title to its property.
There’s no word in the article about whether property has previously been discussed between the church and the presbytery. If this is a pre-emptive move, I have to say that I wish they hadn’t done it. Discussion to reach an amicabl, out-of-court settlement would be preferable. But I haven’t been privy to what preceded this vote, so for now I’ll just wait and see how things proceed.
The Londonderry church held several congregational votes Sept. 30. A motion to immediately leave the PCUSA was approved by 208 voters and disapproved by 86 voters. The tally for disaffiliation represented 71 percent of those voting and 47 percent of the church’s total membership of 446 that is reported on the denomination’s Web site.
The church is gathering written and e-mailed “letters of intent,” for or against the motion to disaffiliate, from members who were not present to vote Sept. 30. “These do not count as votes, but will be used to demonstrate the will of those members who were unable to participate in the Sept. 30 congregational meeting,” the church’s Web site states.
This, on the other hand, is an excellent move that I hope other churches will emulate. It will be helpful, not only in forestalling any presbytery attempts to say that a minority ran over the voiceless majority, but will facilitate efforts to bring as many people from the congregation with them as possible.
A motion to join the non-geographic, transitional New Wineskins Presbytery of the EPC also passed by “overwhelming majority” Sept. 30, according to the church’s Web site. The exact vote total was not available.Northern New England Presbytery has lost not only its second-largest church in terms of membership, but its most generous church in terms of monetary contributions to the PCUSA. Londonderry Presbyterian Church members gave $658,349 in 2006, according to the denomination’s Web site.
That’s got to hurt. By the way, Londonderry is currently without a pastor, so the line about how the evil incumbent is manipulating his congregation for his own benefit into doing something it doesn’t want to do won’t work here.
Londonderry will be the seventh PCUSA church to date that has voted to begin the process or made the move to come into the Presbytery of the East. More have made inquiries. Welcome, brothers and sisters!
October 9, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Wow!!! $658,349 pays for a lot of jobs…
October 15, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Godspeed Londonderry!
On a pastoral note: I love it when the Ruling Elders step up and take their biblilcal duties seriously! It’s a great encouragement to us Teaching Elders!
October 15, 2007 at 12:58 pm
In a perfect world, pre-emptive moves would not be necessary. However, the PC(USA) created its own draconian plan for pre-emptive strikes and property seizures in the Louisville Papers. Suit was filed in anticipation that the PNNE would follow that game-plan.
The Ruling Elders of Londonderry are to be commended for carrying out their duties to the flock entrusted to their care.
Mac
October 15, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Mr. McCarty, the attorney from the EPC to LPC, can justify his “pre-emptive” actions all he likes. PNNE did not plan to follow any game plan— except to be pastoral, caring, and concerned about our sisters and brothers in Christ at LPC. Our plan was to listen and dialogue, which is what our Moderator, Stated Clerk, General Presbyter, the Moderator of their Session, and a number of others, all tried to do. Mr. McCarty convinced the Session of LPC to toss out the BO and create their own set of rules. I wonder if he advised them they would be breaking their ordination vows as they did so?
October 15, 2007 at 3:42 pm
I think that all Presbyterians should ask this of Pastor Merrill:
Who actually proposed ‘tossing out’ the Book of Order? Is that not what the Louisville Papers exactly recommend?
However I highly suspect that our answer from presbytery officials who are asked about these documents will continue to be the sound of silence. Telling, no?
October 16, 2007 at 4:53 am
Elder McCarty,
Could you point me to the Scriptures which justify pre-emptive legal action based on a presumptive anticipation?
Thanks.
October 16, 2007 at 8:15 am
The Louisville Papers were the preemptive action.
The New Wineskins advice is the just response.
October 16, 2007 at 9:37 am
Just to clear the record–Pastor Merrill keeps characterizing me as “the attorney from the EPC to LPC.” I am not, nor have I ever been retained by the EPC. I am not an employee of the EPC. Until last June 1, I was a serving ruling elder in Forks of the Brandywine Presbyterian Church, which was then affiliated with the PC(USA). On June 24, the Forks voted to disaffiliate from the PC(USA) and to affiliate with the EPC through the New Wineskins Presbytery.
The implication that I am a secret agent for the EPC is simply wrong.
As for Mr Mott: My dear brother Toby has said it as clearly as I can. Having secretly published the Louisville Papers and having refused to disavow them, the PC(USA) and the presbyteries who received them and kept them secret now come complaining with unclean hands.
Mac
October 16, 2007 at 8:09 pm
I am a member of Londonderry Presbyterian Church, and I voted to leave. Ample opportunity was given to the Presbytery of Northern New England (PNNE) to make its case for staying in the PCUSA. I went to there meeting, and I listened to their case. I could basically sum it up as session lied and EPC bad and to strict. When I asked the general presbyter of PNNE about the change in the Trinity (which is published on the PCUSA’s theology and worship page) in which the words Mother, Child, and Womb were equivalent to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, the general presbyter denied the change. Another question by someone else asking about a study performed by the PCUSA, in which low numbers of Pastors and Specialized Clergy actually believed Jesus is the on way to Heaven and other issues in regards to the Bible, was originally ignored. When a later gentleman asked to have the question answered, the only answer given was “I don’t know.” They never stated any theological reasons to stay. They pointed to the book of order–which doesn’t seem to be upheld anymore.
I was not originally in the camp to leave the PCUSA. I was one of the people who firmly believe in staying and fighting the good fight to uphold God’s word within the PCUSA. As I learned more about the national PCUSA, I felt God’s calling to vote to leave the PCUSA and join the New Wineskins. Every action taken by the PCUSA from the Louisville Papers to other things done by the PNNE has nailed that coffin shut. I could never go back to a PCUSA church. The PCUSA has lost its saltiness! While some churches within the PCUSA may not have lost their saltiness, the denomination as a whole has.
October 17, 2007 at 5:53 am
Rev. Toby and Elder Michael,
Both PCUSA and Wineskins have drafted their “advice” but, correct me where I’m wrong, so far no presbytery has filed a pre-emptive lawsuit against a congregation while several churches have filed pre-emptive lawsuits against presbyteries. Should presbyteries now feel justified to file pre-emptive lawsuits against congregations based on a presumptive anticipation?
October 17, 2007 at 7:54 am
Mr. Mott:
You are wrong on several counts. In the mid-1980’s, the Presbytery of Donegal filed pre-emptive lawsuits against FPC, Coatesville, PA and Faggs Manor Presbyterian Church in rural Chester County, PA seeking to enforce the so-called property trust. See, Presbytery of Donegal v. Calhoun, 99 Pa. Cmwlth 300, 513 A. 2d 531 (1986); Presbytery of Donegal v. Wheatley, 99 Pa. Cmwlth 312, 513 A. 2d 538 (1986). (The presbytery lost-at the trial court and when it appealed.) Also, in early 2006, the Presbytery of Eastern Oklahoma, following the game plan set forth in the Louisville Papers preemptively filed affidavits clouding the title of the property of every church in that presbytery.
Moreover, the law suits filed to date are declaratory judgment actions, i.e., they ask the only authority with jurisdiction over property title to resolve the dispute between two claimants to the same piece of property. In Romans 13:1-7, Paul reminds us that the civil magistrate is also a creation of God with certain ordained responsibilities:
“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.”
Thus, when the civil magistrate rules on the applicability and enforcability of the so-called property trust, the issue will be rsolved and the parties may then be guided accordingly.
October 19, 2007 at 12:01 pm
If my friend is correct… the court had previously ruled that the property belonged to the congregation. The day after LPC voted to leave, the Presbytery was back in court trying to get a new ruling.
Many congregations are trying to get this settled before they vote to leave precisely because of the PC(USA)’s stance, and actions, in the past.
Wouldn’t it be nice if they simply said, if you are leaving over doctrinal issues, the property belongs to you. After all, who paid for it?
October 19, 2007 at 9:43 pm
Toby/Michael/Joseph/Cavman,
Do you people actually read your own words or hear them while you type them out???
Yet, you still proudly proclaim you are Christians? The hateful attitudes are evident in your writings. You mock and criticize the law making and judicial system for being so liberal in this country, yet you are all for turning to them when they “suite the need”!!
This is much like what has been happening in Londonderry. I have heard many of the right words “you are loved and wanted” yet I am locked out and cut off from all email contact. Meanwhile, leaders state that this is part of “Safe Church policy” and “due to server error” to the congregation.
Local option is what is the most frightening, especially in the midst of this type of hate. Being able to option out of the main body’s beliefs at the drop of a hat by 10-12 people and move property titles without any check and balances of a governing body leaves the field ripe for corruption.
With this being said…… based on the main push to move being a homosexual/sanctity of Marriage issue, in a report that changed nothing, people speculating the church will be over-run by “them” as installed Pastors and in other leadership roles, a similar situation could arise out of “Local option”. Speculation on Local option, on the conservative side in the same manner, could lead some to believe about EPC that “Cult leaders/Radicals” will be running the church in the same time frame. All this on speculation but not trying to change things in Truth and Love like God tells us to as Christians, but rather shows Hate and condemnation for his brother and sister in Christ.
When people seem more concerned about material things such as property and belongings than the hurt caused to their fellow brothers, sisters, and themselves, it is clear the Bible is being misread!!
As far as who paid for the Church? GOD DID!!! He paid it through my Tithes also, and my active service for Him within His walls!! Members of the congregation past & present have given their Tithes also, not just those who have chosen to be part of the Wineskin Community/EPC. Why should those who are for staying and doing God’s work where God put us have to leave and be told we are no longer welcome in God’s house? Is this how EPC wants to be perceived by non-believers? The perception coming across currently to them out of Londonderry is “We are right, you are wrong and no longer belong” and “We won, you lost-now get out”.
God brought me to Him through PCUSA and accepted me for who I am not my beliefs or positions at the time. He changes those for me daily, so I can be closer to him and my brothers and sisters.
I could had typed a whole bunch of Bible verses, court cases, and Book of Order G-1.0301(Right of Judgment) blah, blah to lift up my case as right also, but chose not to!! I will end with this…”They will know we are Christians by our Love”…..or will they??
October 22, 2007 at 11:16 am
Elder McCarty,
Where those two 1980s Presbytery-filed suits pre-emptitve of a constitutional [or un-constitutional] dismissal process?
I’m not a lawyrer so I’m not sure how the Oklahoma affadavit qualifies as a lawsuit, or how it clouds a title, “against” the Kirk congregation?
Haven’t you at least left out several restraining orders from the “law suits filed to date” by congregations?
October 22, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Dear Cameron Mott;
I just wanted to chime in and add another to the list of vicious and violent assalts pre-emptively launched against departing churches. We at Riverside were honored to be chosen by the Lord as a witness against the PC(USA)as they lauched a mean spirited, unilateral attack not only against God’s children in general, but against private individuals in particular. This evil thuggish behavior has allowed us to show the whole of northwest Iowa what sort of immoral coercion must naturally follow any Christian organization’s seduction by Socialism, and we have been glad for the privilidge of being allowed to do so. The more PC(USA) attempts at intimidation, extortion, and theivery can be brought to the public’s attention, the fewer PC(USA) members there will be- and the freer Christ’s church on earth will be to follow His Spirit rather than the dictates of “the Price of the Power of the Air” who shapes each age’s prevailing trends.
Rev. Russ Westbrook
Teaching Elder, Riverside Presbyterian Church, PCA
October 22, 2007 at 8:59 pm
Dear Rev. Westbrook,
With all due respect, the Presbytery’s lawsuit against Riverside was not pre-emptive of a constitutional process of Riverside’s request of dismissal was it? It was after the defiance of the authority of the Presbytery to enforce an administrative leave and after your session’s abdication of the dismissal process by denying the Presbytery’s authority over them and your session’s establishment of affliliation with another Presbyterian denomination without dismissal. I base this entirely on information from The Layman, so please correct me if I have mis-stated the circumstances.
Cameron Mott
Ruling Elder, inactive; Hillsdale Presbyterian Church, PC[USA]
October 22, 2007 at 9:56 pm
Dear Elder Mott;
I appreciate your curteous request for more information. The facts are that we did indeed request dismissal, and were told by Prospect Hill Presbytery meeting in official session that “We will NEVER deal with your request”. We have the evidence to prove that, BTW. Riverside is a congregation of the Prince of Peace; war is only something we engage in when its brought to us. Had Prospect Hill Presbytery honored the unanimously expressed will of the disciples who call Riverside Presbyterian Church there spritual home, we would have been glad to have said goodbye in a cordial manner and been on our way. It was never our intention to engage Prospect Hill in any conflict. We have, in fact, invited their churches each year to participate in our yearly revival (just like all the other congregations in our local area), and bare none of them any ill will.
That being said, however, faithfulness to our connectional nature has required we get on with being a church of Christ, and therefore we have indeed already become a congregation in good standing within the Presbytery of Iowa in the PCA. In fact, we held said presbytery just this summer. We have no intention of ceasing our active discipleship simply because of persecution.
Again, thank you for asking.
October 23, 2007 at 9:10 pm
I have been a member of LPC for 13 years. I voted to not leave PCUSA on theological grounds. All the discussion on this page justifies the changing the of the locks so that the PNNE could not gain entrance to the church. That sounds good in a letter to this blog where you assumed the truth would not be told. The truth is that the NEW Wine S congregation locked out long term members-Christian brothers and sister- from a building that they have worked to build, develop with loving devotion to Jesus Christ.
Why did the NEW Wine S. lock out their brothers and sisters? The answer is simple. They are not following Jesus. They are driven by greed. They want the $3million church for themselves. They feel that if they were to share with others they would lose the court battle. What is sad is that they sold their souls to Satan to win the court battle.
Scripture says “by your fruits shall you know them” Their unChristian act of locking out their brothers and sisters, is not an act of loving God and loving your neighbors, but an act that Satan would applaud.
Why do I not want to worship with tne New Wine S congregation? There are a number of reasons. The elders of the church have embraced the Arminian Heresy! Since they follow that heresy, any minister that they select will also follow that heresy. I don’t want to be a member of that congregation; but would I act to not share the facilities. NO. God is the ultimate giver of Grace. I will not act in a way that would dishonor Jesus by locking out fellow Christians.
God has his purposes. In the final analysis, the church built on sand will not last. A church built on a solid foundation will thrive. The continuing congregation of LPC is bujilt on the solid rock including the Reform theology and the teachings of Calvin in the interpretation of scripture. We are meeting in private homes today, but with Jesus’ help we will thrive.
October 24, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Rev. Westbrook,
That is strange since the Layman accounts seem to describe how the Presbytery was dealing with your congregation’s request.
Did the commenter[s] have the authority to “never deal with your request” or did the whole of your presbytery vote to never deal with your request?
November 2, 2007 at 6:14 pm
I am a long time member of LPC and am currently honored to serve as a Deacon of Ministry of Caring for our brothers and sisters here in the Londonderry community. I appologize to my brothers and sisters in Londonderry for entering the discussion here, but I am grieved again by the comments of my Brother in Christ, Bob Robbins.
I too thought to “stay and fight to change” PC(USA) initially. Our church has been involved in this fight to be salt and light to PC(USA) for a long time already. But as time passed the Lord showed me again that we are called to Love the Lord, Love one another, by the Holy Spirit strive to do His will, rejoice in Him always, rest in His grace and that the Bible is God’s ture word – the ultimate guide. The Bible and not any other book is where we are to look as we seek answers and guidance in all things.
I have seen the correspondence from PC(USA) and PNNE, I have read the Book of Order, I have tried to read all that has been made available lately so that I may be aware of the issues not simply for myself, but more importantly for my Watch Care (my brothers and sisters attending our church who I am assigned to support in prayer and deed as their Deacon). I attended the meetings for both sides of this issue at LPC. I have seen PC(USA) and PNNE’s continued expression of their desire “to be pastoral, caring, and concerned about our sisters and brothers in Christ at LPC. Our plan was to listen and dialogue” It all sounds right, but the bottom line is they don’t walk the walk. It was time for LPC to focus again on serving our Lord and striving to save the lost in our community – not continuing in discussion to pursuade Christians to believe what is taught in the Bible.
Our Session prayerfully, respectfully and courageously, by God’s grace and the power of the Holy Spirit, stood for what was right. They led this congregation through a long period of seeking, discussion, learning and reflection. We are all human and of course nothing is ever executed perfectly here on earth. However, I believe the members of our Session have consistently tried to do what is right, follow God’s call and lead in love. Are we not taught to be patient in love and to forgive one another?
For me the tenor of the discussion by PC(USA), PNNE and by those choosing to stay with PC(USA) is often very telling. All this discussion in the media and anger over church property is disgraceful. The Session is doing what it believes to be right for our church family, and I fully support them. It grieves my heart to hear such anger and the hurt spewing from a small handful of people, being continually dispensed through various media outlets. We are all at different places in our walk with the Lord and I will continue to pray for you Bob, and Lucy too.
The Session and all who give of their time and efforts to support LPC continue to this day to reach out in love to our brother’s and sisters who have voted to stay with PC(USA) and have simply left our church family. We are here 8:00 9:30 and 11:00 a.m. every Sunday, our doors and our hearts are open to you, please come back and fellowship with us.
November 2, 2007 at 7:37 pm
Thank you for coming by, and for your words, Barbara.
November 3, 2007 at 5:52 am
Barbara,
Who are you kidding here? Again, just another case of destruction hidden by “in the name of God”
The only thing this session was led by was the intimidation and condescending attitude of one Mike Schrowang. This was attempted in Windham, but thank God he did not succeed there. He has now succeeded here with the help of a few with the same hate in their hearts, and has managed to rip a church apart. Feel free to investigate, I have!!
Hate is not just words my dear. The words said, all sound good, but the follow up actions do not match. It is a good thing you read that book of order!! I have and continue to do so and actually understand it. However because I was in a particular meeting, I was labeled by Mike as “Half those morons in there don’t even know what the book of order looks like”. So I ask you, do you understand it the Mike Schrowang way, or do you actually understand it correctly.
I have been very active in the LPC family and have been told I don’t belong!! I have been locked out of a Church I have actively served in. I have also been cut off from any emailing lists because I will not be moved by the evil and intimidating words and actions by this small group who charged ahead with this move in spite of initial vote against it!!
The straw pole was simply a means to direct the intimidation and strong arming literature passed out, to persuade those who don’t look deeper and only take surface value as gold.
I find it quite interesting that as soon as this vote was made, there was an announcement of a prominent position given to a man who led this, “steal the church campaign” in an organization linked to WS, in a position to show others how to do the same…………rip churches apart in the name of God.
Just prior to and right after, from people voting to Go (who actually have stayed and claim the church as theirs), I have heard statements such as these being made:
“That is OK you don’t understand what is going on and don’t worry, you could never be a member because you live in Sin”
“Who’s God do they think they are going to worship anyway”
“If we stay the Homos will be running the church before you know it”
“Session promised us a pastor if I vote to go, and if we stay the PCUSA will force a pastor on us we do not want”
And from a Deacon:
“If you are voting to stay then you probably should not even come for the vote”
This is just a few of the many examples of “We love you and glad you are here”
I hear lately from the people you stand with “In the name of God”
So again I ask who are you kidding? Is this how your session reaches out in Love? This is what is sad and should way heavily on hearts!! It does mine!! They have clearly followed man’s will and not God’s, not because they intended to, but were duped by one man with a few followers he managed to find that had the same hate and destruction in their hearts. Then strong armed into thinking it is
God’s will.
Again, as stated before……….”They will know we are Christians by our Love” or will they?? I am sorry, but the kind of Love flowing from those doors currently does not feel like Love to me!! The “God box” has been outlined by Mike and this session and gets smaller everyday.
I pray that God blesses all of us and rids the hatred I read and hear…..especially in this particular publication which seems to spew nothing but!!
Locked out in the name of Love
November 5, 2007 at 7:15 pm
Bob and Bill,
You keep talking about hatred being said by those of us who have voiced our opinion to show that we prayerfully considered this choice to leave the PCUSA. We are not the ones saying hateful things. Have you guys read your posts? You have not been locked out. You are welcome at the 8, 9:30, and 11 am services to worship and praise God with us. Nobody had denied you that option. Please stop the lies. People like yourselves, and your actions, are part of the final nail the confirmed my vote. Your words speak volumes. Loud volumes of hatred. Your quotes are without context. Without any context, i.e. the rest of the conversation, it is meaningless. As for the pastor quote (”[s]ession promised us a pastor if I vote to go, and if we stay the PCUSA will force a pastor on us we do not want”), that is not what was said. What was said was (these are not the exact words) that if we go, we would more likely to get a pastor that would agree with our Biblical beliefs, but if we stay, the PNNE will more than likely only approve a pastor whose theology is watered down enough for their liking–especially after we actually went through with the vote.
I NEVER heard anyone say: “If we stay the Homos will be running the church before you know it”. That is not something that the members I know would say. Now, a lot of people had concerns with the denominations move towards an acceptance of homosexuality as God pleasing. This goes against Biblical teaching on homosexuality.
Also, I NEVER heard anyone say: “That is OK you don’t understand what is going on and don’t worry, you could never be a member because you live in Sin”. This is not something that the people I know at Londonderry Presbyterian Church would say.
Please stop telling these lies. I am starting to believe you are making these things up to paint a negative picture of the people that voted to leave. I am sadden by your words, and the words of others like you. I will pray for you though.
November 5, 2007 at 7:23 pm
Bill,
Do you realize that the only vote that matters was the one taken at the congregational meeting? 71% of those present voted to leave. You are a minority that has chosen to leave because you believe denominational allegiance is more important than following gods truth. You also haven’t been locked out of the church, the presbytery has been locked out of the church. You are still welcome to attend any of the same 3 services on Sunday that were in place before the vote. If you don’t want to attend them, please go find a new church home. As a matter of law, the church and all of its property is a corporation under NH state law. The leaders of the corporation voted with the assent of the congregation to leave. You may disagree with that vote and the vote of the congregation, but they are both legal, no matter what Louisville and PNNE say. You, PNNE and Louisville never owned the church property, the corporation owns the property. If you feel lead to follow the lies, misstatements, and outright evasion of the law that the PNNE, and Louisville, good luck to you. As a member of LPC, I can’t follow you, your path is not moral, legal, or grounded in biblical truth.
I wish you good luck in finding another chruch home, there are PCUSA congregations around the state which I know will welcome your views with open arms. We as LPC, a congregation with over 200 years of history will continue to minister to our community from our church on the corner of Mammoth and Pillsbury as we have ever since the churche moved to the property in the 1830’s. Again good luck finding a church home more compatible with your views.
(BTW Mike Schrowang is not and was not a member of the church session at the time of the vote, it was the church session as a whole as one voice who brought this forward to the congregation.
December 8, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Joseph,
You are exactly right in your position that the vote to disaffiliate clearly led the corporation away from PCUSA. What is interesting is that you position is that “winner take all”. Those of us that chose not to disaffiliate remain LPC PCUSA. I am not a lawyer, but I know that in the case of business dealings, the majority owners are not allowed to deny access to an equitable percentage of the assets from the minority owners when disagreements arise. I seem strange that this is not true in religious corporations.
In any event, I believe this split was pre-ordained by God to serve His purposes. I also believe that the outcome of the split is already known and will be revealed to us in time.
Dan,
you asked us to find a new home. With God’s help, we have! LPC PCUSA is now worshipping at the Tupelo Music Hall; we have inspiring sermons by our pastor, and we are beginning our pastoral outreach to the sick and needy under our pastor’s direction. Our Sunday school is starting, we are developing a youth program, and we have an active music/worship ministry led by professionals giving freely of their services. Our church choir will start participating in worship next week and will include caroling to the shut-in as well as participating in our Christmas Eve services.
God has been good to LPC PCUSA as we have been growing by reaching out to the communiity to share the Gospel of Jesus Christ and inviting our neighbors to hear inerrant word of God as revealed in the Holy Scriptures.
Bobby,
I wish you the best. aYou are following what God pre-ordained you to do, and I am following what god wanted me to do. Two active vibrant churches reaching out into the community where each church is united seems to be what has been God has wanted. I would like to see us somehow share the assets that we both helped to steward and to raise. I am anxious to learn God’s plan for surely “Thy (God’s) will be done here on earth as it is in heaven”.
December 12, 2007 at 7:03 pm
Bob,
You are forgetting that there is still a restraining order against the PNNE from setting foot on the property. That would also include the Pastor because the pastor is a member of the PNNE and not the church. It has been said before, and will undoubtedly be said again, but all those who wish to worship with us are welcome to do so at our normal times.
I find it sad that the minority members who have started a PCUSA church plant (that is what it is) in Londonderry are suing each members of session who brought the motion before the church individually in court. They are suing them personally. That is uncalled for in all circumstances, and it looks just like a spoiled brat crying because he/she did not get their way.
You say that the new church plant ” hear[ing the] inerrant word of God as revealed in the Holy Scriptures.” Does that include the official PCUSA doctrine as defined by the Trinity Study group of the PCUSA to include the Mother, Child, and Womb trinity (trinityfinal.pdf from http://www.pcusa.org/theologyandworship/issues/trinityfinal.pdf)? This sounds like Goddess/Sophia worship to me–not Christianity. The PCUSA seems to be heading more and more towards Sophia worship. Although it has not become a major issue like homosexuality has inside the PCUSA, it will become one if not kept in check.
I did try to listen to the sermon on Anger from your website, but I only got 3/4 of the way through it. It wasn’t a sermon based on the Bible, but worldly psychology with a sprinkling of a verse or two for good measure.
No matter what anyone says, I am comfortable with the vote I cast. I feel relieved that my name is no longer associated with the PCUSA where protesting Burger King is more important than missions. If they wanted to protest something, could they have at least protested something related to Christianity like the right to pray in schools?
Before you reply saying stuff like I am misrepresenting you and the PNNE as some have done in the past, I am not talking about you and other members of the new church plant. I am referring to the overall “climate” and priorities of the PCUSA as a whole. The more I look into the PCUSA’s stances the more it seems they have strayed from the Bible in favor of openness. I have no doubt that there are Bible fearing men and women that still belong to the PCUSA, but the does not mean the PCUSA as a whole is Bible fearing. What good is a Book of Order that claims to say all the right things when it is not followed? What ever happened to Jesus’ word that he is the only way to Heaven? There are Pastor’s within the PCUSA do not believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven.
I will pray for you, and your new church plant, but your actions speak loudly against your witness in the world to the unbelievers and believers both.
December 18, 2007 at 9:41 pm
Joseph,
I think you are referring to “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”.
Remember Jesus also said
21″Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Since you are a Presbyterian (both PCUSA and EPC ministers and elders are obliged to follow and teach the bible as interpreted by the Westminister Confession which states
“All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, he is pleased,
in his appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that
state of sin and death, in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; ”
I believe that there are many in LPC Wineskns who do not accept that only the elect will be saved because they have not been discipled in those sections of scripture which help understand the nature of limited atonement.
Joseph, do you agree with me on that?
Maybe we can start a dialogue of reform theology that both churches can agree.
December 19, 2007 at 6:53 pm
Bob,
It depends on what you mean by elect. I think you muddle things up when you use terminology like “elect”. The simple way of putting it is that in order to get into Heaven, you must except Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour and repent of your sins.
As far as the elect portion goes, I like to think of it like this. First, God knows all that was, is, and will be. Therefore, he knows who will get into Heaven, and since the first is true, he also knows who will follow, and serve, him towards his ultimate goals. {As an aside, this does not mean we do not have the ability to chose. It does mean that God knows how it will end.} Knowing all the “correct” doctrine is meaningless if you don’t sow the seed for God to grow.
Nor do we know how a person will who has been determined by God as elect, and set aside for his use, will come to Christ. Just because the players in the ballgame are already known by God, it does not mean that we do not have to sow some seeds. Some people forget that when they talk about “elect”.
Don’t forget Jesus’ parable about the sower in Mark 4. Since God knows all that was, is, and will be, it is not for us to judge what ground is fertile and what is not. Putting the emphasis on doctrine takes away from the fact that God knows better than us who is really in the “true church” and will grow spiritually.
Every person in the Body of the Church has a place, and we are all not good at everything. Do our bodies do not have two brains? Or, how about two left hands? No, we have one brain and one left hand that works with one right hand to accomplish a given task. Such is how it is in the “true church”. {As an aside, I do not think that the elect will be from just one denomination because I know that human error can ultimately get in our way of understanding God.} A person who does not know the Westminster Confession, or about Presbyterianism in general, may be far more productive at the sowing of seeds than someone who has the Westminster Confession memorized and knows ever punctuation mark.
Remember what James says in James 2:17-20:
So it is with faith: if it is alone and includes no actions, then it is dead. But someone will say, “One person has faith, another has actions.” My answer is,
“Show me how anyone can have faith without actions. I will show you my faith by my actions.” Do you believe that there is only one God? Good! The demons
also believe—and tremble with fear. You fool! Do you want to be shown that faith without actions is useless? (Good News Bible)
It is not only important to believe the right things, but your faith must produce actions, or fruit.
Confessions are great for statements of what we believe, but we must not let it take the place of God and his word, the Bible. When you put so much value on a confession you stray close to a boundary of Gnosticism where the gnosis, or knowledge, is more important than the sacrifice of the Lamb–our Savior Jesus Christ–for our sins.
As for starting a dialog of reform theology, maybe sometime in the future. As for the moment, I would like for the dust to settle. Right now, it would be hard for me to have such a discussion while there is still a legal gun pointed at the members of Session who brought the motion to leave the PCUSA to the congregation of LPC. I find it despicable and not very Christian like that someone, or a group of someones, would personally go after the property of the leaders of the church. I also think it steps over the line. Once the dust has settled, I might be able to enter into that type of dialog, but right now I really don’t want anything to do with the PCUSA and its theology.
December 19, 2007 at 6:56 pm
Sorry for the confusion of the layout of my previous reply. I forgot that spaces were removed at the beginning of a paragraph.
December 21, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Joseph,
Is there a legal gun pointing to the heads of the new wineskins session? Is anyone going after the property of the leaders of the new wineskin church? the answere is No! If they told you that, then they deliberately misquoted what their lawyers told them about the facts in the case. Before writing and using the word “despicable”, you should find out the facts in the case. The ten commandment say that “you shall not bear false witness”. That is a commandment, not a “suggestion”. It is your duty to ascertain the facts before making a false accusation.
I would be happy to discuss the relevant facts with you over a cup of coffee, unless you are so filled with hatred, that you won’t talk. Remember, Jesus said “love your neighbor as youe yourself”. He also said “love your enemy”. Whether you consider me a neighbor or an enemy, show your love and learn about the other side. Remember, we are all brothers in Christ.
December 22, 2007 at 8:57 pm
Bob,
I think you need to recheck your facts. I know for a fact that the members of session that were on the session when they brought the proposal to leave the PCUSA before the congregation have been served notice of a second lawsuit which sues them personally (individually) which is signed by John M. (the PCUSA pastor for the Londonderry Presbyterian Church for those who do not know) on behalf of their/your session. I have seen the document, and I have a copy of the document. At the end of the document I see sections V. C. 55. e. & V. C. 55. f. as putting the property and valuables of the session members at risk.
I am not sure whether you are being lied to, or are not completely telling the truth. Either way, I stand by my statement, and I stand by my session. It is despicable that a pastor would sue session members individually–even if it is on behalf of a small portion of a church. This lawsuit is not a lawsuit to determine the ownership of the property. It is not a lawsuit to allow a congregation to prayerfully seek the will of God while attempting to receive discernment from God. It is a lawsuit aimed at taking the personal possessions, property, and valuables of the session, held in trust for God as all of our stuff is really held in trust for him, for financial restoration of a supposed wrong. In the end, God’s will will be done. You are still in my prayers.
February 16, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Joseph,
I agree, God’s will will be done! Although your congregation has locked us out, others have stepped in. We have been given the keys to St. Mark’s church in Londonderry and we have been given the Tupelo Music Hall for Sunday school and Sunday morning worship.
The Gospel is being preached from the “pulpit” and our Sunday school is teaching Christianity stressing the Bible and readings from the book of Confession. The General Assembly of PCUSA has affirmed that the requirement of Sexual Purity in Marriage be enforced and that ministers who do not conform will be removed through the Judicial process within PCUSA. This is already happening.
Our membership is growing rapidly. Some think that our outreach program will, with God’s help, grow to over 300 by the end of the year.
Our growth is coming from a Pastor, assisatant pastor and staff who preach and teach directly from Scripture.
Soon, with God’s help, we will back at 126 Pillsbury.
God is Good!!
February 16, 2008 at 9:53 pm
^
I concur with preemptive action. Historical examples of churches leaving the PCUSA and its predecessors bear that out. Church politics is a nasty game and I wouldn’t trust any presbytery.
What gospel do you preach? What is the gospel to you?
I also laugh at the thought of the PCUSA sexual purity/marriage statement being enforced. They’ve had it on the books for several years and it wasn’t actively enforced. Mainline Presbyterianism has long said one thing and looked the other way in practice. When your PJC starts removing ministers in “liberal” presbyteries that profess to be homosexuals then I will be impressed. But that won’t happen- no, they will ignore it and/or some other bill will be passed on the GA floor. Liberals (or whatever term you use) have had the majority for decades. It’s only a matter of time before the PCUSA follows the Episcopal Church in official action.
February 21, 2008 at 9:47 pm
David Peterson,
What planet are you on? PCUSA has taken a firm stand to defend its constitution and take action against the presbyteries and churches who are ordaining pastors who are homosexuals. They are removing those who were inappropriately ordained. You might not trust any presbytery, and I don;t care if you are impressed. because you are not in posession of the true facts
I preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. You obviously do not understand the gospel of Jesus Christ or you wouldn’t ask What is the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Our congregation (Londonderry Presbyterian Church PCUSA) is definitely more evangelical than the group that voted to disafilliat and join the New Wineskins. When you preach, live and act according to scriptures aided by the writings of John Calvin and Knox, you will attract people to your church. New people are coming to our church to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ in our PCUSA church.
The new wineskins church has been losing session members, long standing members and others to evangelical churches in the area. Just like all the liberal PCUSA churches, a non-evangelical new wineskins church will lose members. One cannot be an evangelical and not evangelize. A church that is not attracting new converts to Jesus Christ as their lord and savior, is, by definition, not an evangelical church. It is not enough to try to be pure, if you do not follow the great commision you are not evangelical.
David, try to lift your head out of the sand and act more like a follower of Jesus Christ and less like a gullible ostrich who will not observe the truth around him.
February 21, 2008 at 10:38 pm
I ask what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is because I am well aware that it means different things to different people. Some focus almost exclusively on missions and conversion- some on social action etc… To some it is merely a subjective religious experience. And some use it to to promote their agenda. So give me a definition, what is the Gospel to you? Is it summed up better in the Westminster or C-67? Was Jesus born of the Virgin Mary or is that “myth.”
Of course, I should ask what it is and you as a Christian should have no problem telling me how you see it. I am an “evangelical” but also a graduate student (history) who is well of mainline Presbyterianism. I’m well aware of the PCUSA’s history of nasty church politics (they’re not the only ones) and overbearing hierarchical government.
By the way, I doubt I am a gullible ostrich. I’m actually rather suspicious, one has to be in grad school. Whether or not I am acting like a follower of Christ, we will leave the Almighty to judge those actions- and I do believe He judges. Let me warn you though that I and others my age have absolutely no tolerance for ministers who tell us to obey them and say that they have the truth. I’m not afraid of you or any other minister on this planet. I will say what I believe even if I get criticized.
If you are preaching the gospel of Christ and being are being converted then I commend you. If you don’t mind answering, you say that your congregation is evangelical. What is your rationale for staying in the PCUSA. Are you fine where the denomination is, do you wish to reform it etc…?
Let me say this- from my study of mainline Presbyterianism of the past century, the PCUSA and its predecessors, particularly beginning with the Auburn Affirmation, have largely been inconsistent with enforcing doctrinal standards, except those of their choosing. One for instance could be ordained (I know for fact) in the old UPCUSA that denied the Virgin birth or the deity of Jesus, yet a person who objected to the ordination of women was automatically disqualified. As a member of the PCUSA, you actively (or tacitly) endorse abortion, anti-Israeli views that the denomination pronounces, etc… Perhaps you are fine with those views, but most evangelicals would find them most distasteful. Additionally, you state that a church must attract new converts to be evangelical. It is ironic that you as a claimed evangelical would stay in a denomination that has largely been a “failure” (in terms of membership) for the past half century.
February 22, 2008 at 7:04 am
David,
Too bad you spend your graduate studies being gullible and not going into depth in your research. I have worked with many students like yourself.
Look at the facts, not the propaganda that is being fed to you by those with an agenda. That is important.
Those of us who are gainig ascendancy in PCUSA are going to lead the next evangelical revolution by real outreach to non-believers. Those who try to grow by parasitic actions such as the New Wineskins byspreading false and misleading information will be judged accordingly.
God Bless
February 22, 2008 at 9:26 am
And you don’t have an agenda as well?
Evangelicals have tried to take over the PCUSA (and its predecessors) for over half a century. Don’t think you’ll succeed, but good luck.
February 22, 2008 at 10:55 pm
Bob,
You have not been locked out. You have not been allowed to use the church as you wish to start a new congregation. You can come and worship with us at the normal times like everyone else.
As for your your church growing to over 300, I find that hard to believe. God knows what will happen in the future, and I am leaving it in his hands. We are close to getting our next pastor. The Lord is definitely working at LPC EPC.
As for “[t]hose of [you] who are gainig[sic] ascendancy in PCUSA are going to lead the next evangelical revolution by real outreach to non-believers.” The PCUSA is rotting at it’s core. The leader of the PCUSA believes that protesting Burger King the on behalf of tomato pickers is more important than spreading the Gospel. Kirkpatrick even wrote Burger king himself.
As for the marriage issue being enforced, it is not even enforced in the PNNE. It has been ruled by the PCUSA judicial system that you cannot remove a minister just because he/she is a practicing homosexual.
Regarding, “[t]hose who try to grow by parasitic actions such as the New Wineskins byspreading false and misleading information will be judged accordingly.” The New Wineskins are not spreading false and misleading information. They know the truth, and they have been trying to reform the PCUSA. Some have decided to move on to allow their churches to focus on evangelical ministries rather than trying to uphold the Biblical truth. They are not parasitic. A parasite feeds off of a host. The New Wine skins are not feeding off of the PCUSA. They are working to change the PCUSA. They want to bring them back to a Biblical basis of Chrisitanity. That is not a parasitical actions. Look around you. The PCUSA has been declining in membership for decades!
I have done some research myself. My research has found that the PCUSA is rotting away at its core. One thing I found, the PCUSA seems to be bordering on goddess worship. I have the document that the Trinity Study group produced (here is the link if you want to go and read it http://www.pcusa.org/theologyandworship/issues/trinityfinal.pdf) where they decided that Mother, Child, and Womb are equal expressions of the Trinity as the traditional Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In my limited understanding, the Woman and the Womb were important aspects in goddess worship (at least in Europe) in the pre-Christian eras.
The higher I looked into the PCUSA the more I realized that some in power have strayed from the Bible. I am still praying for you Bob.
February 22, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Before you comment. I want to clarify my statement:
Some have decided to move on to allow their churches to focus on evangelical ministries rather than trying to uphold the Biblical truth.
When I say this, I am saying uphold Biblical truth within the PCUSA. I do not mean that they have given up on Biblical truth. They have given up on trying to get the PCUSA to follow Biblical truth.
February 23, 2008 at 12:05 pm
Joseph,
Do you have a lot to learn!!! Are you saying that John Calvin is wrong? MY MY, and you call yourself Presbyterian. Have you ecer read Genesis, where it is written that god made Man (Adam in the original hebrew) in their image, both male and female he made them.
Incicentally, you say you follow scripture? Do you follow the commands in Ephesians that elders (,which include teaching elders, ie ministers) should not be women? EPC does not follow that teaching. It ordains women!!
You say you have done research and you claim that tens of thousands of born-again PCUSA Christians are rotten to the core. My MY! You should spend more time reading the four gospels of Jesus Christ and spend less time reading the biased and inaccurate statements of the new wineskins.
You may uphold the biblical truth as we do in our church, but are you carrying out the great commission? Are you actively and successfully bringing people to Christ or are you spending all your time on hate and vituperation in contradiction to the Ten Commandments and our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
John, I urge you to repent and become a true follower of Jesus. Spend more time as Jesus commanded to love your neighbor. You seem to be always looking for the speck in other eyes and ignoring the 2×4 in your own!
Repent so that you might become part of the elect!!
February 23, 2008 at 1:02 pm
^
I wouldn’t get so hasty to judge others part of the elect or not. You still have not answered my pivotal question- what is the gospel to you? What do you preach? You seem to spread some hatred yourself.
As far as loving your neighbor, you could have done a bit better than calling me a “gullible ostrich.” Reminds me of reading manuscripts from the 1973 separations- times have changed, but the nastiness hasn’t.
What I can assure you of is after you are dead and gone and the current PCUSA administration is dead, my generation- and I will personally be active- will show what denomination really is- a rotting carcass that no longer deserves the name reformed or Presbyterian. I personally cheer for the destruction of “cultural” Christianity.
February 23, 2008 at 2:12 pm
David,
I don’t understand your question “what is the gospel to you? Gospel means “good news”. What is the good news in the gospels? The good news is that salvation is possible for me through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.
Since we are all sinners, we need to be saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. What is the gospel to you?
You are cheering for the destruction of “cultural christianity”. What are you talking about? Can you be specific as to one individual whois a “cultural Christian”? Do you mean somebody like David Mackay or others who rofess to be Christians, but lock out their fellow worshippers? Contrary to what you may have read by persons spreading false witness. our congregation is a conservative, evangelical congregation . The elders and most of the congregation have been reborn in Christ, and we are leading the others to the path to beoming “born again”.
Just out of curiosity, how many individuals have you personally led to accept Jesus? Do you folow the example of Jesus as written in Matthew and Mark, and go to where the sinners are to lead them to Jesus? Where do you go to bring sinners to Jesus? I view those that only associate with fellow evangelical church goers as “cultural Christians, “basking in their own holiness, but afraid to approach flagrant sinners to teach them about the gospel.
February 23, 2008 at 9:04 pm
Okay, that’s a good answer, but I am ever suspicious of the meaning behind the vocabulary in any religious debate. These debates become problematic because of shifty meanings in terms. Some will claim, for example, that they believe in Jesus Christ while denying His divinity. Just curious, but what creeds would you closely associate with? For example, would you be more accepting of the Westminster Confession versus the UPUSA Confession of 1967? Would you define yourself as neo-orthodox? Would you agree to the Apostles and Nicene Creeds acknowledging that Jesus literally rose from the dead, was the Son of God, will return again, and the reality of heaven and hell?
The gospel to me is salvation in Jesus Christ, God’s Son, by grace through faith. I hope, but I’m not sure we both mean the same by our statements. My faith is also summed up well in the Apostles, Nicene, and Westminster Confessions. As far as me leading people to Christ, only God can save a person. In terms of actually sitting down with someone and leading them to Christ, no I haven’t. That is a weakness of mine, I know, but as a grad student at a secular university, I have to be very careful how I express my faith. My colleagues know I am a Christian, and I try to live as Jesus would. Believe me, I’m not a Christian for convenience. That aside, I don’t think you can define evangelicals by the amount of people they “lead to Christ.”
As far as cultural Christianity, I cheer for its destruction because I’m convinced the church does better work in hostile, secular environments. I would broadly define cultural Christians as those who go to church solely because it is the culture (this happens alot in the South). In the Northwest or Northeast as a conservative Protestant,, as you know, one does not attend church because it is the “thing” to do.
Now, as to why I charge that the PCUSA is becoming “culture Christianity”- it is my opinion that the denomination has sought to become so inclusive for everyone that, in the process, it has lost its distinctiveness and witness. When a denomination starts actively proclaiming politics (and it does so), then I believe you seriously jepoardize your Christian witness. I observe very liberal PCUSA, UCC, and other churches in certain areas- they are certainly almost the same as the current political beliefs in those areas. But, why are they virtually empty?
As for David McKay, I can’t speak for the Londonderry situation. But, whatever the case, there has been plenty of howling from liberals and conservatives in church property cases. In my opinion, no one wins- and the church most certainly loses in nasty publicity. But lest you think I’m giving you a clean bill of health, I’m most certainly not. I will wait and see…perhaps ten years from now I can better assess the situation.
February 24, 2008 at 8:14 am
David,
We seem to agree on most of what we believe. I and all the people I know in my church believe in the all that is written in the apostles and the nicene creeds. We read and study from the Westminster Confessions and teach from the two catechisms. Our basic theology in PCUSA is the same as in EPC. The differences is that there are many in PCUSA who recite, but do not accept, or openly deny the truths in these creeds and confessions. This leads to wonderful opportunities to proclaim the gospel and teach the truths quietly and lead by example. I know we have touched many in the PNNE with the sincerity of our beliefs.
As to your fears of speaking openly in your liberal and secular environment. Learn to speak quitly and develop a pattern of approaching people with simple teachings from the four gospels. When people read and hear about Jesus’s teachings in the parables, they start to come closer to where they should be. I have found the parables to be non-threatening openings for discssion. Be gentle and listen to their comments. Soon they wil see Jesus’ teachings and may start to come to a church which concentrates on Jesus. The Holy Spirit takes over from there.
February 24, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Thank you for your kind advice…I will work on that in grad school.
February 26, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Bob,
First, my name is Joseph, or Joe to friends and acquaintances, and it is not John. Who are you to say whether or not I have a lot to learn? You really do not know me. You do not know if I need to repent. Only God knows our hearts. In fact, the whole time I have been going to LPC, including before the PCUSA/EPC vote, you never talked with me in person. I know we went to the same service (the 11 am service). Before you offer, I don’t think anything useful can come from us talking in person these days. Maybe someday in the distant future, but God only knows if that is a exercise worthy to pursue.
Now, as for your other responses. How have I said Calvin is wrong? You say stuff out of the blue without offering proof to support what you said. I don’t see the connection. Are you just trying to make me look bad? You said:
“Have you ecer[sic] read Genesis, where it is written that god[sic] made Man (Adam in the original hebrew) in their image, both male and female he made them.[sic]” (God is supposed to be capitalized.)
Yes I have read Genesis. That verse talks nothing about leadership. I too can quote scripture. Have you read Ephesians 5:23? Here it is just in case you do not have a Bible handy:
For the husband is the head of the wife, and Christ also is the head of the church, being himself the saviour of the body. (Ephesians 5:23 ASV)
How about we stick with the book of Genesis:
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy pain and thy conception; in pain thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Genesis 3:16 ASV)
In fact, if you knew anything about the Old Testament times, women were not seen in a good light at all. In some cases, they were barely above property. You see, if I wanted to, I could quote verses to support the view you think I have based on your flawed view of the EPC! I don’t support that view that you say I do. I never said I support that view. Please stop this continuing effort of yours to put words in my mouth.
Now, as for what I believe, I have no problem with woman as Elders, Deacons, or Pastors/Ministers in the church. My sister-in-law, along with my brother, are in the process of becoming pastors in the Four Square Church. We both know of a member of the LPC congregation who is a woman seeking to be ordained–Karen Cartier (spelling?).
I also do not believe that Ephesians 5:23 makes men superior to women. It simply defines their roles. You cannot have two leaders. When a man and woman get married, they are no longer two separate people, but they become one in the eyes of God. As we should follow the example set forth by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, the man and woman are to serve one another just as Jesus served the disciples by washing their feet. That was no small effort in those days. People were not wearing the latest shoes from your favorite store.
Men and women differ in how they approach the world. God made us differently with different roles in mind for us. As such, women can see things from a different point of view than a man can. Since God the Son is the only member of the Trinity that has a gender, we sometimes need both views to completely understand what God is trying to teach us. As for the differences in the way men and women see things, there have been books written on the subject by both Christian and secular authors. I will leave that as an exercise for you to follow up on if you want.
Now for the position the EPC has taken. Do not forget that there were women on our session when they unanimously brought the motion to leave the PCUSA and join the EPC before the congregation. They looked into the EPC, and they were comfortable with it. Others I know looked into it. They looked at the materials they provided, and even went to the website. We did not just listen to the bashing the PCUSA representatives gave at their meeting with the LPC congregation before the vote.
The EPC has let the decision of electing Elders, and Deacons, up to the local churches. The ordination of women has been left up to the Presbyteries. The position states in part:
Thus, while some churches may ordain women and some may decline to do so, neither position is essential to the existence of the church. since people of good faith who equally love the Lord and hold to the infallibility of Scripture differ on this issue, and since uniformity of view and practice is not essential to the existence of the visible church, the Evangelical Presbyterian Church has chosen to leave this decision to the Spirit-guided consciences of particular congregations concerning the ordination of women as elders and deacons, and to the presbyteries concerning the ordination of women as ministers. (EPC website paper, http://www.epc.org/about-the-epc/position-papers/ordination-of-women/)
Have you looked in the proverbial mirror? The PCUSA also ordains women and also allows them to be Elders and Deacons. I think you are making an issue out of something you heard form someone else without verifying it for yourself.
You said, “[y]ou say you have done research and you claim that tens of thousands of born-again PCUSA Christians are rotten to the core.” That is not what I said. What I said was, “[m]y research has found that the PCUSA is rotting away at its core.” There is a difference. I know that there are good Christians inside the PCUSA. I have no doubt on that fact. I did not say tens of thousands of PCUSA Christians are rotten to the core. I said the PCUSA is rotten to the core–not it members. There are bad members of the PCUSA, and maybe the EPC too, but my focus is on the actions or inactions in some cases. Some of the things I used to make my decision were PCUSA papers taken from their website. I do not see that the EPC is biased or inaccurate. I am sorry if you do not understand the difference between what I said and what you want me to have said. Again, please do not put words in my mouth!
You also said, “are you spending all your time on hate and vituperation in contradiction to the Ten Commandments and our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.” Bob, have you ever read what you have been posting here and elsewhere on the internet? I am just wondering. If either one of us were to fit the profile of someone who is vituperating, it would be you. Here, and elsewhere on the internet, you have been spewing venom at those of us who voted to leave, and especially at the Session of LPC who brought this motion before the congregation. You were in the minority, and it apparently upset you. I am sorry for this.
Several of us have posted our reasons why we voted to leave the PCUSA. We noted that we prayerfully considered our vote, and we felt led by God to vote to leave. You spewed venom and hatred on us for that action. You accuse us of being unChristian! You have constantly accused us of locking you out of the church and preventing you from worshiping with us! This accusation was done both on the internet and in the papers. You have said here in this forum that Satan would applaud our actions! You accused us of being driven by greed! Here, and elsewhere, you have accused “[t]he elders of the church have embraced the Arminian Heresy!” (I am not even sure you understand, or know, how this applies, or whether it applies at all. I failed to see the connection.) The Session has been accused of misleading the congregation.
Maybe you should follow your own advice: “you seem to be always looking for the speck in other eyes and ignoring the 2×4 in your own!” To say that you know that I am not one of the elect, as you call it, is saying that you know my heart. You are placing yourself equal to God because only God knows the heart of person, and only he knows for sure whose name is written in the book of life.
Bob, these conversations are now going in circles. I have done what I set out to do. I have said why I voted to leave the church and the reasons behind it. Those with an open mind will look into their hearts and into the actions and papers of the PCUSA to see that what I am saying is true. I do not wish the PCUSA ill will. I do have fond memories of Churches, events, places (like Camp Wilmot), and people in the PCUSA, but I do know that the PCUSA needs to clean up its act. I also felt led by God to defend the actions of the Session and church members who voted to leave. It appears that we are being painted in an evil and misleading fashion by those spewing venom over the internet (and elsewhere). I stand by my Session, and by LPC EPC. I will continue to pray for you Bob. In the words of Peter, “grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and for ever. Amen.” (2 Peter 3:18 ASV)
June 26, 2008 at 12:27 am
I realize its been awhile since I was last here; but, better late than never in making the good news known:
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1304&dept_id=180486&newsid=19524829&PAG=461&rfi=9
The article has a glaring factual error in it- we DID NOT sue PHP; they sued us- but otherwise, does a fine job of expressing the closure of our matter. By all just rights, our property belonged to us; and justice was in fact done. Thanks be to God.
June 26, 2008 at 8:11 am
Congratulations, Russ! I’m shouting out a William Wallace “FREEDOM!” your way.
July 29, 2008 at 4:29 pm
[...] information, as long as they keep things civil. To this day, my October 9, 2007 item entitled Londonderry Makes the Move is the most viewed of my over 775 posts, as well as the most commented on. This situation obviously [...]
September 3, 2008 at 6:58 am
This blog “Londonderry Makes the Move” is now complete as we have moved back to our Church. God’s will has been done. Praise the Lord!! Hallelujah!! Amen