…that the Presbyterian Church (USA) officially tells God to go find another sandbox to play in. According to Minnesota Public Radio:
Presbyterian leaders in the Twin Cities face a historic vote Tuesday.
They’ll decide whether to remove a requirement that ministers and lay leaders be faithfully married heterosexuals or celibate singles. The move could open the ministry and leadership positions to gays and lesbians.
If Twin Cities church [sic--the writer means presbytery] leaders vote in favor of the change, it would be the final vote needed to ratify the change nationally.
More Light Presbyterians, one of the biggest proponents of the change in the Book of Order, is understandably thrilled:
The Rev. Michael Adee — the executive director of More Light Presbyterians, a group that’s been working since 1974 to make the church more inclusive — said dropping the fidelity in marriage, chastity in singleness requirement would return to the church’s original criteria for selecting its leaders: their faith and character.
“This helps the Presbyterian Church be a grown-up church,” Adee said. “That we trust people to work out their faith, their salvation and their intimate lives. And in a sense, the Presbyterian Church has the opportunity to trust God to be at work in calling people to ministry and for us to trust each other. And several pastors have said to me, we don’t like being the bedroom police.”
Yup, the PCUSA is now a grown-up church, and doesn’t need Father looking over its shoulder any more. It can now swagger into adulthood with the rest of our culture, and proudly proclaim to its heavenly Parent that it doesn’t need His supervision, His commandments, or His stuck-in-the-mud morality. It’s party time.
The PCUSA is going the way of the UCC and Episcopal Church before it (because their experiments in polymorphous perversity have worked out so well). Its 45 years of uninterrupted decline will now accelerate, and its leadership will no doubt wonder in the years to come why God isn’t blessing their journey into spiritual adultery adulthood.
All day long, I’ve had running through my head Neil Young’s lament for roadie Bruce Berry, who died of a drug overdose in 1972. Like PCUSA, Berry probably didn’t mean to kill himself either, but he was just as dead:
May 10, 2011 at 5:24 pm
It will be interesting to see how many churches leave the PC(USA) over the next few months. I know of at least one.
May 10, 2011 at 7:31 pm
Who needs God when one has political correctness?
May 10, 2011 at 9:41 pm
I am on record saying not that many will leave.
Another line in the sand will be drawn. And we’ll hear all about “renewal groups” and the last straw.
If you didn’t leave in 1936, 1973, or 1981 then why leave now?
May 10, 2011 at 9:58 pm
Benjamin –
I’m going to suggest that it might take time. As to your suggestion, remember that another generation of Presbyterians has come into being since then. In 1981, I was seven and had no idea about all the issues. I grew up in a large, evangelical Presbyterian church that had decided to stand against the tide. My experience was, shall we say, limited. It has really taken being involved with all this stuff in a deeper way to make me appreciate what’s been going on. Now I’m educating my own congregation. That’s very key…many Christians need leadership that is willing to show them the way, and it requires time to do it the right way. My prayer is that small churches like mine that are still divided on their loyalties won’t split apart but will unify around God’s truth.
May 11, 2011 at 12:48 am
What is it something like 6 of the last 10 stories have been against homosexuals? Why not just post a banner that says, “God, UMC and Riley Case hate fags”? So much, hate on this blog from educated people claiming to be Christians. I wonder why that is?
I had my teenage son who is going thru UMC confirmation take a look at this blog and I think his comment is most fitting. “I didn’t know Neanderthals knew how to write.” An there you have it folks, the view of a 13 year-old brand new Methodist. I wonder how long him and other young people will stick around a church that trumpets Love with Open Hearts, Open Doors and Open Minds but only to those that fit a “certain” criteria?
From reading this blog the last several days and its sister blog of the Confessing Movement it would appear that the only people who will gain entry to the Promised Land are white, heterosexual persons of wealth and education. Funny, my understanding of the John Wesley Methodist movement was to get away from that exclusiveness and narrow-minded view of Christianity and to bring the teachings of Jesus to all people regardless of the situation they found themselves in life. It would appear that some folks do not really believe in the power of the Holy Sprit after all. Then again, it does give me new insight into the May-June Upper Room front cover. So fitting!
May 11, 2011 at 1:13 am
By the way, I also find it interesting that a story that talks about the decline of morality and dishes two denominations for their views. Would use a copyrighted song and video without permission of the owners or artist. I take it stealing is ok here as long as it fits a purpose? After all it is ok, its party time and everyone else is doing it, right?
Funny how the author who rails on the “ polymorphous perversity” of others, fails to see the log in his own eye. I guess, one SHOULD become concerned about what is actually being taught in the seminaries and universities of the Methodist. Of course, for reason not mentioned in the articles!
May 11, 2011 at 7:42 am
Well thank God my own church (ECUSA) isn’t the only one taking flak on this issue. I personally think it’s time to make gay Christians feel like human beings and not leprous limbs to be cut off the body of Christ. I applaud PCUSA’s human approach.
May 11, 2011 at 7:56 am
The item in question is from YouTube. Links to items on YouTube are assumed to be “fair use” material unless otherwise noted (and if it’s copyrighted YouTube will typically take it down).
May 11, 2011 at 9:05 am
Actually, stuff that is posted on YOUTUBE is just that, stuff posted on YOUTUBE. “Fairuse” is nothing more then a word to try and get around copyright infringement. It is all just a matter of semantics right? I’m sure you can recall how far the “fairuse” doctrine got John McCain in the last election. Oh well, everyone else is doing it so I guess that makes it legal.
May 11, 2011 at 9:09 am
Must not feed trolls…
May 11, 2011 at 9:57 am
Aaaah, the ‘troll’ statement. I guess when one cannot defend their misguided posts, or the hate that they spout, they tend to use that line. Interesting enough, I find that it is usually the Republicans and conservatives who use it the most. Understandable really, I mean when faced with “truths” that cause their glass lined worlds to crumble it can cause paranoia. Rather reminds me of the issues many former Soviet Bloc citizens went thru when they discovered most of what they had been taught and lived was a lie. Oh well, if exposing hate and fear mongering results in me being called a troll. So mote it be.
Considering all of the recent posts condemning homosexuals and moral decay of the church and society, one would question why none of the recent news stories haven’t been posted here. I guess maybe it’s not a “sin” if no one knows about it correct?
- Indiana places thousands of women and children at risk by not funding Planned Parenthood.
- 40 million people living in poverty will have no health insurance or access to medical treatment under the GOP plan in the house.
- Like AZ, UT immigration law has been place on hold due to constitutional issues. [Strange considering the lengthy article posted railing against those of us who told you [conservatives] it was a violation of the Constitution and basic human rights a year ago.] I also guess this is another one of those problems touted by fundamentalist Methodist who ignore the official position of the church? [Never mind the contradiction in their argument come Sundays.]
- Millions of children across this country went to bed hungry last night. Millions more will soon join them if legislation in bills before congress is passed. { I wonder how long until the USA is having a killing contagious disease as a result of hunger and lack of basic health care? I’m sure it will then be another sign of the “end of days” by God correct?]
Oh well, like Fox news if you can get people to believe in lies, instead of using the truth… We now return you to your daily dose of hate for those different from yourself. Sleep Well!
May 11, 2011 at 10:25 am
A troll is someone who seeks to drag a comment thread off topic. You’ve amply demonstrated that you fit the classic definition of a troll. You may now go peddle your fish somewhere else.
May 11, 2011 at 1:36 pm
JJ: I am cheering for you and the UMC move to fully embracing the GLBT lifestyle in everyway – gay clergy, noncelibacy, etc. Then I can finally get my wife out of the UMC and into a real church that follows God’s word not the world. Come gaydom come to the UMC and help me save my wife!
May 11, 2011 at 2:14 pm
David – am I reading this correctly that clergy in the PCUSA are free to commit adultery? Surely that is not what it says, is it?
May 11, 2011 at 3:10 pm
I am not sure what JJ is so upset about, Jim Winkler has run most of the conservatives out of the UMC already (at least those who are paying attention).
I was looking at the stats on the UCC, nearly a 50% drop in membership and it is estimated that the Espicopal Church has lost ~100,000 members already. The PCUSA church I know about had told their members they were splitting after the vote (to slow a mass exit that had already begun). But, only time will tell and we shall see. Pastors’ Pensions and health insurance worries will squelch some of the rhetoric. I am sure PCA and EPC new member classes will see an increase.
May 11, 2011 at 5:30 pm
Gary: The way I read this, they are free to commit adultery if their presbytery agrees that such behavior is OK. I actually don’t think that will become a problem, but there’s no telling in advance what kind of behaviors are suddenly going to become permissible for clergy.
May 11, 2011 at 6:30 pm
David – then I suppose my next question is if it is permissible for clergy (to commit adultery) then it would be permissible under church policy to also commit adultery? What’s good for the goose is good for the gander I suppose. Seems like an awful slippery slope to me. I was just kidding about wanting the UMC to follow the PCUSA lead because it will absolutely devestate my wife to see this happen to the UMC. I only go to the UMC because my wife goes but I go to a non-denominational evangelical church where the Bible reigns supreme and the things of the trends of the world are not how policy is set.
May 12, 2011 at 8:35 am
Some conservatives like to point out the membership decline in chuches that welcome GLBT people, and dont take a fundamentalist approach to theology.
These denominations have suffered decline, but most of it has been because they have smaller families, and did not plant a ton of churhces out in the ‘burbs that don’t ask that much of people (mega churches, etc).
There are two other churhces which are experiencing numerical decline I can think of other than the Episcopalians and the Presbyterians. They are the Southern Baptist Convention (several years now, as they lose more and more youth by their own admission) and the Salvation Army, which has lost a large % of its membership.
Neither is at all welcoming to Gay people, or at all liberal in their theology.
Sorry to Burst your bubble, but the only churches of any size at all that are growing are the Assemblies of God (anyone willing to go down THAT road?) and the Mormons, which are not really a church at all.
May 12, 2011 at 10:01 am
Gene,
I’ll be frank…most of the folks at mega-churches I know are far more engaged with their neighbors, involved with their churches, and doing the work Christ called us to than the average pew sitters I’ve known in the mainlines. You -can- go to a megachurch and just be fed, but most ask a lot more of their membership than the average PC(USA) church.
May 12, 2011 at 2:21 pm
ACNA is growing.
May 13, 2011 at 2:32 pm
It’s going to be tough to say that members of your congregation should not engage in adultery or fornication when they can point to language in the PCUSA constitution that says it’s ok for pastors, elders and deacons.
May 13, 2011 at 10:32 pm
Jim the Puritan,
There is still the Bible and the Westminster Confession. I do not order PC(USA) materials if I can avoid it.
May 29, 2011 at 12:02 am
The issue of Adultery is somehow absent from this new modern thinking and belief of homosexual non celibate ministers being ordained. If it is no longer sin, this would also mean that sexual promiscuity and adultery is also no longer sin. It would also have to embrace sexual promiscuity and living together rather than being married. This would have to also pertain to heterosexual ordained ministers as well or it would be considered prejudice.
Therefore, adultery and the sanctity of marriage must also be put away from our new modern belief system. There have been many comments about men and women who people knew who were married, had children and came out of the closet and how they were still wonderful Christians. No one mentioned the pain of the spouse to have lived with a man or woman who lied to them and had children with them while sleeping with others. Some men and women have been known to kill themselves over this realization that their spouse was lying to them and being sexually active with others while they were married. It is a painful and devastating thing for a spouse to learn this so called wonderful news that their whole lives were a lie. Surely this kind of behavior does not at all show love, nor a Christian spirit. So they were liars and adulterers as well as self serving, willing to hurt those they claimed to love, if nothing else. Can we really call this Christianity?
So if adultery, lying, promiscuity and homosexuality are ok and marriage is no longer an institution of God, where does it end? The truth is [it cannot now stop here.]
We must now consider every single lifestyle as choice.
Drug addiction, pedophiles, pornography, after all these are just a few life styles in which people should be enabled to become ministers of the Gospel.
If indeed we are to be truly not narrow minded and love one another, according to these new modern standards.
The truth is that love does indeed accept every one and love everyone but true love, the love of God, does not condone nor accept that sin is ok. But rather calls us to teach others in love to repent from sin. For Christ died for our sins, repent for the kingdom of God is at hand in the end when we stand before God the Father, we shall be called haters and murderers if we lead others to believe that they could enter heaven without repentance from sin.
Homosexuals and those who are sexually permissive, pedophiles, drug addicts, alcoholics, dishonest businessmen and women, liars, thieves and murderers are all welcomed by God whomsoever beleiveth on Him shall not perish but have everlasting life. God loves us sinners of which I am one. While God loves the sinner and offers Himself for sin the scriptures are clear He hates sin.
I shall not inherit the kingdom of God without repentance from my sin. Try though we may, to redirect the truth of the written word of God and change the Gospel, as is stated in the Auburn Affirmation – a document embracing modernism and “liberty of thought and teaching.” Where this New modern Gospel interpretation began. But the scriptures are clear. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever.
Mathew 11:2-4
2I am as concerned about you as God is. You were like a virgin bride I had chosen only for Christ. 3But now I fear that you will be tricked, just as Eve was tricked by that lying snake. I am afraid that you might stop thinking about Christ in an honest and sincere way. 4We told you about Jesus, and you received the Holy Spirit and accepted our message. But you let some people tell you about another Jesus. Now you are ready to receive another spirit and accept a different message.
Matthew 3
1IN THOSE days there appeared John the Baptist, preaching in the Wilderness (Desert) of Judea
2And saying, Repent ([a]think differently; change your mind, regretting your sins and changing your conduct), for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3This is he who was mentioned by the prophet Isaiah when he said, The voice of one crying in the wilderness (shouting in the desert), Prepare the road for the Lord, make His highways straight (level, [b]direct).(A)
4This same John’s garments were made of camel’s hair, and he wore a leather girdle about his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey.(B)
5Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the country round about the Jordan went out to him;
6And they were baptized in the Jordan by him, confessing their sins.
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee and escape from the wrath and indignation [of God against disobedience] that is coming?
8Bring forth fruit that is consistent with repentance [let your lives prove your change of heart];
9And do not presume to say to yourselves, We have Abraham for our forefather; for I tell you, God is able to raise up descendants for Abraham from these stones!
10And already the ax is lying at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
11I indeed baptize you [c]in (with) water [d]because of repentance [that is, because of your [e]changing your minds for the better, heartily amending your ways, with abhorrence of your past sins]. But He Who is coming after me is mightier than I, Whose sandals I am not worthy or fit to take off or carry; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
12His winnowing fan (shovel, fork) is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear out and clean His threshing floor and gather and store His wheat in His barn, but the chaff He will burn up with fire that cannot be put out.
May 29, 2011 at 1:21 am
The issue is not whether God loves sinners He does and He does want us to teach them and to love them as neighbors and if gays feel like non humans as one said it should not be because Christians treated them as such for that would not be of God and never will be but the issue is sin and sorry folks sin according to God is still sin and if there were no sin then Christ would not have needed to die for us and if you don’t believe in sin then you must realize your belief system is not Christian.
Gay’s of course are allowed to worship, everyone and anyone should be encouraged to do just that with the rest of us sinners. I wouldn’t want it any other way nor would God but they cannot and will never truly be pastors according to scriptures. (1 Tim 3: 1-15)
I guess some of us are at a place where we think we can remove whatever scripture we like according to how it fits our lifestyles and apparently some of us have decided that we could start telling God what is and isn’t sin and now we think we can tell God that He is wrong about homosexuality, adultery, and oh by the way marriage is no longer necessary either God. Stay tuned God and we will update you to any other changes in your written word, after all this is the modern age, get with the program God.
Good luck with all that. Yes Virginia there is such thing as sin! but only where God is concerned.